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Shut up, and listen


Last night I attended an RSA and University of Brighton event on the question ‘What is the role of men in supporting women into leadership?’

This was a follow-up to a larger event a few months back entitled ‘How women lead’. That was a great session, with a lot of energy. Creating a follow-up must have seemed a very logical next step.

All the panelists seemed to agree that there is a problem: there are not enough women in leadership positions – in both public and private sectors.

And as Simon Fanshawe, OBE, pointed out ‘complex problems require difference and diversity’. Many of our most significant problems today, from the social to the environmental to the economic are complex problems, problems that require different ways of thinking and acting.

Some good points were made.

Fairly obviously, ‘structural problems’ prevent women acceding to leadership positions.

James Rowlands, Violence against Women Commissioner, illustrated the importance of language by telling us about ‘mansplain’ – the phenomena when a man in a group takes it upon himself to explain what a women just said.

There was talk of the ‘fat, white middle-aged man trap’ and of re-framing what it takes to be a senior leader.

Giles York, Chief Constable of Sussex Police, pointed out the importance of holding people to account. Walking the talk is more important than talking the talk?

So why didn’t we, the audience, hold the panel to account? What might have been the structural problems that prevented that?

Structural Problems?

Firstly, it was an all male panel. That was interesting. Don’t women have a say in answering the question ‘What is the role of men in supporting women into leadership?’?

Secondly, with one exception these appeared to be very traditional leaders: a consultant, two CEOs, and a Chief Constable. We didn’t get to hear much from James Rowlands.

Thirdly, the room was set up in traditional lecture style. Chair and panellists at the front, (hiding?) behind a table. They had water, and microphones, we didn’t. Were these signals of power, showing us exactly who was in charge?

But if we had been brave enough to deal with those ‘structural problems’ what might we have held the panellists to account for?

Reframing Leadership?

Might we have asked what does ‘reframing leadership’ mean?

One possible reframing is towards a more enabling style of leadership, one that involves listening more than speaking.

Business theorist Chris Argyris, amongst others, has spoken of the difference between ‘advocating’ and ‘enquiry’.

Advocating is when we hold a position and tell others about it, and essentially recommend what others should think.

Enquiry is radically different. Enquiry, as I understand it, is a place of vulnerability – of not knowing. Starting from that place of vulnerability and exploring a topic. Engaging in dialogue, back and forth, while really listening. Trying to empathise,  to understand another’s point of view.

And possibly, just possibly, updating our own.

A lovely Argyris quote: ‘People don’t listen, they reload’.

Not only were there ’structural problems’, but there also seemed to me to be a lot of advocacy. Again and again, the consultant, the CEOs and the Chief Constable, assisted by Penny Thompson (CBE, CEO of Brighton & Hove City Council) told us how it was, leavened by a few jokes, statistics and stories to help keep us entertained and in thrall?

Questions from the Floor?

Yes, there were some questions from the floor. But might we have asked whether these were part of the enquiry? Or just further advocacy?

I am not saying this happens with every question. But sometimes it is worth looking for the advocacy hidden in a question. ‘Does the panel think X, where X is what I think, and what I really want is for you to agree or expand upon what I have just said, confirming it and making me feel good’. Advocacy or enquiry?

Or ‘I’d be interested to know what the panel thinks about Y because that demonstrates how knowledgeable I am and I would love for you to talk to me later and even perhaps employ me to help with your problems.’ Advocacy or enquiry?

Yes, enquiry is difficult. For all of us. Families and school teach us about power, and they teach us about the importance of advocacy. Sometimes with force. Sometimes with violence.

When we’re anxious, in front of a crowd, maybe advocacy seems the easiest path? Perhaps it’s especially difficult for men in traditional leadership roles to be vulnerable? Maybe it means giving up power, and status, and position?

Reframing Leadership?

And maybe it takes real courage to ‘walk the talk’ – to reframe leadership, and to hold each other to account, to be vulnerable? Perhaps it means allowing vulnerability – in ourselves, as well as others?

Someone in the audience asked the question ‘What is the change we’re all afraid of?’ That is a great question, and I’d have loved to have heard a real discussion, and heard people’s views.

But I couldn’t see the chance, that particular evening. I was sad about that. It felt like a missed opportunity.

Where were the young women – Gen Y or Gen Z – in all this, I wonder? I would have liked to have heard from some younger people. Maybe they would have been able to give us some pointers, some good ideas?

Maybe they would have said that the role of men in supporting women into leadership is to make sure that a genuine dialogue takes place, to make sure that as well as appropriate language, there is equivalence of opportunity to speak? For all – the young, the old, the extroverts, the introverts, the women, and the men?

That’s obviously what I think. I’m advocating that position. But I’d genuinely love to hear some other views. I’d love to be contradicted, to hear I was wrong. Or maybe just not quite right, not in command of the full picture? Maybe I could add some new ideas, maybe I could throw out some old ones? Only then can I learn.

I am really encouraged that these conversations are taking place. But I agree with Giles York, we need to ‘walk the talk’, and hold each other to account.

Creating that kind of dialogue requires real leadership – it can seem hard to rearrange the furniture, to make a circle, to stop, and to listen.

Maybe that’s where the (young) women were? Talking together? And waiting for the men to shut up and listen?

Author: Pete Burden

New ways to organise and lead - for people with 'purpose' #leadership #inquiry #noticing #complexity #communication

10 thoughts on “Shut up, and listen

  1. A very forthright post, Pete.

    I wonder why we still default to the classroom format rather than the circle? Is the classroom still the “safe” way to manage content, especially when it is possibly controversial.

    The danger of open forum is that it might just create the real needed enquiry. But those questions can’t be predicted in advance. THAT conversation might just become scarily ground-breaking.

    I’m glad to read that insights were still usefully shared as this is such a vital topic. But yes, I’d personally prefer to listen a lot, and contribute a bit to the creation of questions, to deep dive into this topic and to be responsive to what both women and men have to say on this topic.

  2. I wasn’t there but I can imagine a ‘roving mic’ situation – question asked, abrupt answer, move on; both parties trying to make a clever point. Too much advocacy seems like a telling off, too much inquiry seems like we are not getting there – how about a bit of ‘advocquiry’. But to my mind that only really happens in chat afterwards so it was a pity people left before the conversation could really begin. It sounded like the set up (room, people, facilitation) rather reflected the problem.

  3. I have to say I also left early. I had somewhere to be. And it seemed so fruitless. Such a repeat of the very patterns we were meant to be trying to explore and possibly change.

    But maybe the real issues were all addressed in the bar afterwards? Maybe that is where the real conversation happened? Maybe someone who stayed can say?

  4. Reblogged this on Responsive Enquiry and commented:
    Reblogged from Conscious Business UK

  5. Been meaning to post for a while, Pete. I think this is the best post I have read of yours. Pithy, challenging and I agree totally (guess that is why I like it 😉 Joking aside, you raise a number of useful challenges, pointing out the patterns that need a wee bit more challenging. I also am increasingly distrustful of anything that is set up with a ‘panel’. i recently decided that I will either refuse future invites for such, or subvert the format in the room.

  6. Peter these are really important points you are making, and go to the core of what needs changing. Previous RSA and women in leadership events I have spoken at or helped organise have also fallen short into these regards, but hope strings eternal and old structures take time. I guess we need to think generationally.

    When I remember marital rape was legal in my lifetime, yet now evolutionaries like Caroline Lucas, Joanna Macy, Ariane Huffington, Jesse Black Mooney, Lasy Lawless, Pete Burden and countless others have global platforms – a flame stays lit.

    I hope you get to meet and talk with our daughter sometime. She’s part of the woodcraft movement, which continues to offer alternative spaces for young people to form and share views.

    When we know effective facilitation, that shares power broadly but is still held and led (eg. Open space, appreciative enquiry, circle time) we of course want to find ways to bring that into other spaces.

    In a busy, mostly online world, getting together face to face can be one of the most profound opportunities to communicate, yet so often proper dialogue (bohmian or otherwise) don’t bloody happen. It’s disappointing. And motivating.

    I invited several women to this event. We all decided not to go due to the lack of women represented.

    Let’s have a chat about some positive actions that might stem from our experiences.

    Thanks for being there, as a man, as a human being wanting to support positive change for women, for us all.

    I woke early, after another tough day trying to start a visionary enterprise that helps create the change we seek, reached for the iPad to get a hit of something from Lasy / CBP… and now thanks to you I’m starting the day feeling fed.

  7. Any experience / comments on these approaches Pete? Others?

    Also the “unconference” approach gaining ground, linked to Barcamps etc.

    Online it’s “here comes everyone” and “we think”…. Geek culture having a huge impact on mainstream. Generationally we can expect to see chalk and talk, panel based facilitation shift. But not without some real growing pains (eg. within the entire educational system and business world).

    RSA are trying to modernise, not sure if universities / education can or will in time to remain truly relevant. (Had an interesting chat with Germaine Greer on that point recently… “The answers will not come from academia” She Said, while planting trees.)

    Read Blessed Unrest and anything by Joanna Macy for a hope surge.

    “They tried to bury us. They didn’t realise we were seeds.” Old Mexican proverb.

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